Axe Fx II Setup

[Wizard of Wailing]

    I did some searching on this topic.  However, I've never owned anything other than an amp an pedals, so I figured I would post this question to be sure. 
    I own a Fender Twin Reverb and a 2 x 12 speaker cab.  If I got an Axe Fx II would I run it through my Twin and use the speaker on the Twin and/or the speaker cabinet? 
      Also, to those who own the Fx II, what is the ideal setup (for playing in one's basement, I don't play in public)?

 

[mayfly]

I guess you could use the twin, but it's better if you use a PA type speaker that is full range.

Playing in the basement?  Heck!  you could use headphones!

 

[Cagey]

If you run the AxeFx through a Twin, it's always going to sound very much like a Twin with some special effects in front of it. That is, you'll lose the vast majority of the modelling that the Axe is known for. Not a whole lotta point in owning an Axe if you're going to hobble it like that, although you will get very accurate models of many high-end sfx. Some pros use it that way, like Steve Vai. Rather than have a rack/pedalboard with $20K worth stomp boxes, you can just run the Axe into your favorite amp (ie: a Twin or whatever). One could argue that it's a bit limiting, but then some pros have a specific sound they get from a specific rig, so the amp/speaker modelling capabilities of the Axe aren't as attractive to them.

If you use a flat(ish) power amp into a dedicated speaker cabinet such as a 212 or 412, you'll only lose the cabinet emulations. But, actually, that's a lot. Cabinets have substantially more to do with audio character/tone than many give them credit for.

If you use a flat(ish) power amp into a flat(ish) PA speaker or go all the way to a FR/FR (Full Range/Flat Response) speaker, then you get all the magic that is the AxeFx. A Peavey 5150 sounds like a Peavey 5150. A Twin sounds like a Twin. A Vox AC30 sounds like a Vox AC30, and so on. You'll get Freidmans, Dumbles, Mesas, Bad Cats, various tweeds... the list is long. Plus, you still have all those wonderful sfx.

For someone who's doing a lot of covers or originals, having over 200 different high-end amps, numerous sfx and who knows how many speaker cabinets offers a nearly infinite palette of sounds to work with. Plus, you have many variables you can tweak to create amps and combos that don't even exist. Change the output transformer for a Marshall JCM800 and see what happens. Change the power supply sag for a Vox and see what happens. Change from 6l6s to EL84s in a blackface Bandmaster, just for fun.

Lastly, if you're not already aware of it, the Fractal Audio Forum is a huge resource that you can't afford to ignore.

What's the ideal setup? Your guess is as good as mine. This is what I did...

 

[Timmsie95]

I knew Cagey would have some good input :icon_thumright:
You can get q decent FRFR for a modest price, if you look in the right places

 

[bagman67]

You can get q decent FRFR for a modest price, if you look in the right places

PROBLEM SOLVED.

 

[Timmsie95]

Hahaha  :laughing7erfect!

 

[stratamania]

I'm going to say something different. Cheap FRFR isn't always going to give a stellar result.

Some start with a power amp and guitar cab, and just use the preamp and effects modelling. Or something like a Matrix power amp with guitar cab in a similar manner.  A similar set up would be running the Axe II into the FX return i.e. the amps power amp but I would imagine your current amp doesn't have one.

It's also a good question to ask of how and where are you going to use the thing. If you are only in a small space and so forth a good set of studio monitors can be used.

But if you want to go the FRFR route to use full modelling and Speaker IRs. You need fairly good monitors. If Studio monitors on your desk are not enough for your situation they can get pricey fast.

The Axe II is a great device, but it isn't a one box solution to get the most out of it you need more supporting equipment.

Things to ask ?

How do you plan to use it ?  Gigging, recording, mainly for practice at home, etc.

How much more investment do you have available to add for additional kit ?

It can be a learning curve, some take to and some don't.


EDIT,  also for background reading download the manual, and read it.

http://www.fractalaudio.com/manuals-and-docs.php

And the wiki is well worth a visit.

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_II_Wiki_Home

 

[TBurst Std]

To echo what has already been said, you want to get a FRFR system. And do not go cheap. Rarely do I use my DynAudio BM5 studio monitors with the AXE. 99% of the time I use my QSC HPR112is (now known as KW-12s). Look for some used as you can cut your cost in half most likely.

Oh and be prepared for your brain to explode LOL

 

[mayfly]

Following up (I've got some time right now)

When playing out I mostly use our Bose L1 systems for the AxeFX (and everything else).  I get good tone that way.  When using a house system, I always ask them to run it flat, and they never do ("I need to use the smiley face curve for the mics" - idiots.  but I digress).

For smaller places I'm actually in the process of designing my own FRFR speakers using the eminence line of coaxial PA drivers.  I've got a prototype that sounds pretty good (better than most powered PA systems out there like EV, JBL and the like).  I might have a winner with that one.

In any case, you want to have a flat of a speaker as possible.  Heck if I'm feeling the need to design something for the purpose, then chances are that it's worth putting time and money into 

 

[swarfrat]

Look at the Fearful cabinets - the 12's are more than sufficient for guitar (or bass) there are builders who will build them for you, but the designs are published freely.  The 12/6 cube is about perfect. (Another thing about the 12/6 is you can use a much cheaper Eminence Alpha 6" midrange instead of the more expensive 18 sound driver.)

http://greenboy.us/fEARful/

 

[Timmsie95]

Following up (I've got some time right now)

When playing out I mostly use our Bose L1 systems for the AxeFX (and everything else).  I get good tone that way.  When using a house system, I always ask them to run it flat, and they never do ("I need to use the smiley face curve for the mics" - idiots.  but I digress).

For smaller places I'm actually in the process of designing my own FRFR speakers using the eminence line of coaxial PA drivers.  I've got a prototype that sounds pretty good (better than most powered PA systems out there like EV, JBL and the like).  I might have a winner with that one.

In any case, you want to have a flat of a speaker as possible.  Heck if I'm feeling the need to design something for the purpose, then chances are that it's worth putting time and money into 

If you could make a decent stereo 412 FRFR with the styling of a marshall cab, I would probably buy one from you...

 

[swarfrat]

412A should be plenty big enough to shoehorn that Fearful 12/6 into. It'll hit 122db SPL w/ 500W and I think it's down -3db @ 45 Hz. Way lower than you need on your extended range 7string.

 

[Timmsie95]

I'm suprised it's not more common to see an FRFR that's the size and look of a 412 guitar cab. I'm getting two Line 6 L3M's for my Helix, and that's the closest I have found (in canada, in my price range) to the same size as a 412, (because it's essentially a 410 with two tweeters) and it's squared, so it looks more traditional. They sound great, too.

 

[Cagey]

If you could make a decent stereo 412 FRFR with the styling of a marshall cab, I would probably buy one from you...

Just get an empty 412 Marshall bottom (or 2 and make them a stack), then get a little Atomic CLR to set next to it and pretend you're playing out of the Marshalls. Nobody will know.

It's what a lotta big bands do. The ubiquitous "wall of sound" is largely stage prop.

The days of needing 6 or 8 Marshall stacks are over. PA system technology has advanced to where you don't need those monster backlines like the old arena bands of the 70s played through. Now you get on stage and play through a mic'd Fender Champ into a monster PA system, like Jeff Beck does. Rush does it a little different. They got a tongue-in-cheek thing going on where they use stacks of washing machines, vending machines, steampunk boxes, etc.

I saw a concert on TV not too long ago where there was practically nothing on stage but the players. Guys used in-ear monitors and radio-connected the guitars, bass and mics to the FOH. Although, I have to say, they did look a bit forlorn all alone up there like that without any toys  :laughing7:

 

[Logrinn]

You can see more of Alex Lifeson's setup here:

[youtube]3-E-t3JSllw[/youtube]

 

[Timmsie95]

I didn't think of that one.
I could even adapt the empty cab so there isn't any wood behind the grille, except for at the edges, and sit the FRFR inside, mainly to minimize stage space, but then it would give the illusion that it's coming from the cab.

I've seen the Rush set up, thought that was pretty funny  :laughing7:

 

[mayfly]

Following up (I've got some time right now)

When playing out I mostly use our Bose L1 systems for the AxeFX (and everything else).  I get good tone that way.  When using a house system, I always ask them to run it flat, and they never do ("I need to use the smiley face curve for the mics" - idiots.  but I digress).

For smaller places I'm actually in the process of designing my own FRFR speakers using the eminence line of coaxial PA drivers.  I've got a prototype that sounds pretty good (better than most powered PA systems out there like EV, JBL and the like).  I might have a winner with that one.

In any case, you want to have a flat of a speaker as possible.  Heck if I'm feeling the need to design something for the purpose, then chances are that it's worth putting time and money into 

If you could make a decent stereo 412 FRFR with the styling of a marshall cab, I would probably buy one from you...

Sadly not possible.  The land of FRFR is more like super High Fidelity stereo speakers that have done a lot of time in the weight room.  When designing a cabinet, the internal volume, venting, frontal surface area, frontal shape, and even things like recessing the drivers and shaping the corners all have an effect and all need to be right.  Add to this 24db/octave crossovers, baffle step compensation, cabinet resonance, waveguide effects, cabinet bracing and how much you stuff the cabinet.  The fortunate thing is that most of these things have a measurable effect, which makes it all well understood.  What's also pretty well understood is that the general shape of a marshall 4x12 is about the worst one you can come up with for an attempt at a high fidelity design 

Putting a really good FRFR inside a marshall 4x12 will also sound weird because the reflections from inside that 4x12 will cause noticeable variations in the on and off-axis response.  In other words, it will sound 'boxy'.

May as well just run that AxeFX through the PA  :headbang:

 

[mayfly]

99% of the time I use my QSC HPR112is (now known as KW-12s).

Hey!  How do you like those HPR112s?  I've been thinking of trying the KW-12s (and the 10s)

 

[stratamania]

I seem to recall about 3 years back there was a company showing a prototype 4 X 12 a style FRFR but I don't think I ever heard about it being released into the wild.

 

[Cagey]

Hey!  How do you like those HPR112s?  I've been thinking of trying the KW-12s (and the 10s)

I don't know if you spend any time on the Fractal forum, but a lotta members there were in love with the K-12s for a long time, unless they could afford the RCF NX 12-SMA. My understanding is the KW-12s are essentially the same drivers and amp in a different (wooden) cab, which supposedly improves the sound. Also adds weight. But, the way the dispersal pattern is designed makes them more suited for arrays or groups, where you can place them to cover a specific area more deliberately. Knowing that, I don't think I'd recommend them individually for instrument amplification. You typically want as wide a dispersal as you can get for that application. For instruments, the Atomic CLRs are the current kings of the hill.